Finalizing F1 Engines for season 42
Finalizing F1 Engines for season 4231.03.2021 09:48:19
Current reality of new engines development by the teams forces us to do some changes to the proposed systems. Here is the whole explanation of that and maybe also some interesting information for F1 team managers.
1. If a weaker team does not have so much money than top tier teams and cannot afford to have as many employees, they can build one part at a time and do it with all employees, not to do 3 projects and split resources. 2 seasons are not enough to build the whole engine? Why do you think I wrote during the first few seasons supplier engines will be better and teams will improve after a few seasons? Yes because 2 seasons are not enough... But 4 seasons are much better for this, teams will not have so great cars as they have to use resources on engine and build other parts when there is no engine project, and not so great engine during those first seasons, but should benefit after some seasons. Put all effort into the chassis when the engine is close to potential. This WAS a great (but missed) opportunity for weaker teams as stronger teams tried to build engines in these 2 seasons (and lost potential faster because of splitting resources among more projects). This way this not so rich team can get to the same or better level as top team after some seasons.
2. It is already known that potential decrease is based on intellectual failures of designers. So it is not affected by the project budget or facilities, just the quality of designers. That means better designers assigned to the project, the potential drops slower, while with worse employees potential drops much faster. This makes my words from 1 stronger (1 project at the time takes more time to finalize a full engine BUT decreases potential slower and gives a better chance to build a good engine). This argument is valid only when teams are really trying to maximize quality as close to potential as possible, if you do for example aero parts and you really do not have to maximize quality, then it does not matter so much how fast is potential dropping.
3. Another way to optimize the costs/result is to find which part has the most effect on the final engine and which part is easiest to build. Maybe there is a part where it makes more sense to build just weaker (not above 95% / rather only 90%), save money and invest elsewhere. And when I say "maybe" it obviously means one of the 4 engine parts is more difficult to develop and costs more while it gives less to the final engine.
4. There are some teams which have no chance to build a good engine unless they start projects from scratch since their potential is already bad. In the meantime there are teams which will have quality engines at the beginning of season 42, and there are also teams which will have good engines but little later.
5. Very good engine built by the teams is expected to be 95.5% - 96% - it is possible that one or maybe 2 teams will go slightly above 96%. At the moment the best developed engine seems to be in range around 92.5-93.5% (including the parts currently under development) but we can expect improvements until end of the season.
UPDATE (2021-03-31 16:34 CET): Best built engine is expected to be slightly above 97%.
6. I think since there will be no really "cheap" engine, the rule to force teams to use one supplier engine for at least 5 seasons is not really needed. And since it was not meet with ovations I think nobody will be against the decision to cancel that.
7. Here are the following choices for supplier engines and will be added to official list of suppliers in next few days.
- 95% high quality engine for high price - 10M per season (costs little bit more or about the same than teams would pay for building own engine with all 4 parts at 95% which includes project budgets, engine department costs for 8 seasons, part of employee costs)
- around 94% solid engines which will be stronger on some tracks while weaker on others - 8.5M per season (this price is slightly cheaper or about the same than what would teams have to pay for developing such engines)
- around 92.5% not bad/not great engine - 6.5M
- "cheap" engine with quality 90.5% - 5M (much cheaper than what teams would have to pay for building such engine - gives big time boost to budget to build better chassis or other parts - but rather reasonable opportunity to save for the future).
8. Since some teams already invested money in engines but have no chance to match the quality of that 92.5% engine so that would be a tragic 8 seasons of racing there will be a chance for recovery. Even if the result of development did not lead to quality F1 engines, there are still inventions which have value for production car manufacturers etc. Teams can sell the knowledge to third parties and get back the project budgets (not any part of employee salaries or facility maintenance costs). Teams can do this and sign a contract with the engine supplier of their choice. Deadline for this decision is before day 72 this season.
9. Tanking is acceptable but only in a reasonable way and for reasonable punishment. It can help save money for doing good development after some seasons and for achieving short time success, but while doing this sponsors do not want to pay so much money to the teams who are dead last in every race or totally uncompetitive. Currently we have a limit on team rating set to minimum 500. This limit will be ignored if the team has both cars slower than 104% of best time in Q1.
If we use the limit on this season`s qualification at Paul Ricard where the best time in Q1 was 01:35.119, the limit would be 1:38.923.
This will start being valid from the beginning of season 43. If the team with the rating under 500 becomes competitive they cannot go lower with rating than their rating at that moment...
10. We are working on new F1 financial system inspired by real F1 - Costs Cap. Real life F1 is changing and our version will change too. That means tanking will not make much sense in the future. Altough we do not want to completely remove advantage gained by good management in previous seasons so we will spend a lot of time to look for good solution taking all aspects to the system. And one of the goals would be to simplify the financial system to make it better understandable. Stay tuned!
31.03.2021 13:04:45 - torbar4life - Reply
I don't like it when rules change in the middle of the project. It was said:
"During the first season we expect supplier engines being 1-2% above top teams' engine (or around 0.05-0.1 seconds faster). During 5th season it should be 2-3% under 3rd team's engine (or around 0.1-0.2 seconds slower) and it should stay like that until end of engines period."
I don't think we would have decided to build our own engine if we knew that we could buy one with quality of 95%. Like you said there is no way that 3rd best engine will be 2-3% better.
You also wrote that:
"At the moment the best developed engine seems to be in range around 92.5-93.5% (including the parts currently under development) but we can expect improvements until end of the season."
How could teams improve their engine further this season? We haven't even begin to develop our aero parts.
So in the end teams with the best developed engine will be 2% behind the best supplier's engine. You will be able to build a better engine only if you cut on aero development but in both cases you will not be competitive. On top of that teams that has decided to develop their engine will also have an underdeveloped ES.
If teams are able to switch engines every season we will see teams winning championships for two seasons and then tanking for next 6 seasons.
This new changes have changed everything. I am sure that most teams would have decided for suppliers engine if they knew this. And even if they can get some of their money back they probably haven't invested enough into their chassis project.
This new engine rules will have a very big negative impact on the teams that have decided to build their engine and the mid-table teams will be impacted the most.
hi, i understand what you mean, but as Debik wrote - why team have "bad" engines? If a team made bad decisions or bad management, would it be a reason to make worse supliers engines?
31.03.2021 14:43:45 - torbar4life - Reply
I would like to add a few things.
If the top engine will be 96% that the supplier's engine should be at 94% at most and even that is more than I expected. It was said that suppliers' engine will be 2-3% slower that the 3rd best engine.
Otherwise, there is no real advantage for teams developing their engine. You spend the same amount of money only to get 0,5% more after 4 seasons. However, you had to invest a lot of time into planing your finances projects, figuring out how engine tuning works,... On the other hand a team buying their engine will win a tile or two without showing any skill. You keep saying that you want to reward good managers, but you keep bailing out teams that are poorly run.
I also have a suggestion regarding contract length:
- if a team wants top suppliers' engine than the contract length should be at lest 4 seasons.
- for 2nd best engine contract length should be 3 seasons
- 3rd best engine contract length should be 2 seasons - and for the worst engine contract length should be just 1 season.
- I completely understand. I really expected teams who build engine to take slower approach (which would lead to better potential and better result after few more seasons). Teams are developing the engines and at least one team if their current project stops now, would be able to go for 93-93.5% if they can tune it well... But their project continues and when done it will be better...
- This is the only option to have suppliers engines better than built during first season and better built engines than suppliers later... I had to look from both perspectives - team which decided to go with suppliers and teams which build own engine.
- I do not expect a team using supplier engine for 10M per season every season... Teams already expresses that even 9M is too much...
- That was a goal from the begining to give teams with suppliers engines chance to be in front during first seasons and those who have own engine to have advantage later. This rules will be valid for 8-9 seasons, and after the development is finally done, they will not spend any money for engine while suppliers would need to be paid - so budget for chassis will be much bigger than for teams with suppliers. And yes I expect teams with suppliers engines will cry then
- I must admit that the whole idea of suppliers engines is just causing trouble. At the moment I think this is the last time with suppliers engines.
- As I said tanking will not be an option with Cost Cap...
There are at least 6 teams with suppliers engines... Lets see how much skill will be needed to win a title...
95% is way too high for the supplier's engine. McLaren will probably end up just under 95.5% if we max out our potential.
BradleyBundy was right "Manager Bradleybundy is calling it quits cause of constant rule changes combination of not discussed or changed at the last minute."
Why you keep tinkering you are only making it worse... I am extremely disapointed.
31.03.2021 15:23:01 - DiogoSchwinn - Reply
I disagree on one-season contracts. Our decision to build an engine was based on long contracts, we could not have built and tried to advance our classification in the first 2 seasons. That said, I think that the supplier contract has to be valid for at least 4 seasons (the two where it will be better and the other 2 where it will be worse) mainly when it comes to the best engine.
Another concern is that we didn’t know how the projects would happen, we all take risks building engines, so offering cheaper engines than the development cost will further penalize teams that didn’t have a good choice. The best engines should cost somewhat more than the cost of development itself, since suppliers need to cover their costs, some more than the teams have, such as taxes and still have a certain profit margin.
talking about Tank, I would like to suggest that there is a tax paid for teams that have values greater than X in cash at the end of the season. (80mi? 100mi?) Something like 33% tax on the amount that exceeds the chosen amount. This would discourage numerous terms of tanking in order to "buy" a title just ahead.
31.03.2021 15:39:56 - torbar4life - ReplyReply to: 31.03.2021 15:07:03 - DebiK
But you are giving massive advantage to suppliers teams (again).
They will be a lot faster in the first two/three seasons, and then they will be able to move to slower engine and less expensive engine to save money and after a few seasons they will strike again at the end when we will have to develop a new engine. It's a win-win for those teams.
You are also forgetting about ES and potentially new gearbox. It will be hard to fully develop an engine in next 3 season if we have to build a new gearbox too.
In my experience it is very hard to gain 0.5% with engine tuning, but you can easily lose 2% or even 4%.
What about 2-3% slower than 3rd best engine after 4 seasons? Red Bull had 25M more to play with than any other team, so I expected they would be able to challenge for the title. I just don't think it is fair to every other team that has decided to build their engine. They will lose a lot of money just because Red Bull and Porsche have a chance to get to 96%.
31.03.2021 15:42:04 - torbar4life - ReplyReply to: 31.03.2021 15:04:58 - DebiK
You don't need any long term planing skills if you can change your suppliers engine every season.
You just go all in and spend all you got on one or two seasons.
I think rules were more or less clear from the idea till today... so why not just sticking to it? every team had a chance to decide what to do. If teams took bad decisions, why rules should change then to improve that? I'm sure many teams would take different approach about the engines if rules would be different 2 seasons ago, when decision had to be taken.
I think now noone really knows what will be the outcome of this and is only making things more confusing.
31.03.2021 15:55:27 - torbar4life - ReplyReply to: 31.03.2021 15:07:03 - DebiK
I also have a proposal:
- 1st engine 94.5%, priced at 10M
- 2nd engine 93.5%, priced at 8.5M
- 3rd engine 92%, priced at 6.5M
- 3rd engine 90%, priced at 5M
Contract length is 3 seasons:
For season 43 all engines lose 0.25%
For season 44 all engines lose 0.25%
For season 45 all engines lose 0.25%
For season 46 all engines lose 0.25%
For season 47 all engines lose 0.25%
For season 48 all engines lose 0.25%
However, the prices of all engines stay the same.
This way teams with suppliers engine will have a small advantage in the first few seasons but the team that have developed their engine will have their advantage too.
Otherwise, mid-table teams will get screwed because now it's impossible for them to change their strategy without taking a huge hit.
31.03.2021 16:01:33 - DiogoSchwinn - ReplyReply to: 31.03.2021 15:55:27 - torbar4life
His proposal is exaggerated. Recalling that Debik said that the first 2 seasons the supplier engines will be better, after that, worse. I find it interesting to have some loss after two seasons, since we have a gain limit with the team's developments, however 1% in total after the first 2 seasons of the best engine would be a good size. There is no reason for you to diminish others either.
Debik I really enjoy some informations you put in thia article. But, why the potential information is not on F1 manual? We need a better manual for F1 and for the game.
I am a developer too and know that we think writing a manual is a crap damn bad job. But it is what makes a game good.
We need good informations on game. Doing so will attract more people to join and stay.
I wish you luck.
Sorry but we cannot force suppliers engines being weak just because the engine which will be 5th or 6th best among built engines will be just a little bit better than the most expensive suppliers engine. Suppliers engines are still supposed to be better at the beginning than the best built engine.
Hm, I really did not think that this potential change to long term engine contracts will be an issue when Cost Cap have been announced, so there is no really big advantage from using best engine short term and then the cheapest engine. But when it is there will be restriction.
There have been teams which started with small cheap projects to see first results and influences on whole engine before doing the real development of parts. So it is not true that it was not possible to have any idea how it would work.
How many titles from the beginning of this game have been bought simply by tanking? How many teams jumped to the top long term thanks to tanking? First of all I do not think it is a real issue. And tanking clearly will not be an option when Cost Cap will be implemented... And that will be much earlier than new engine rules will come.
- 1st engine 94.5%, priced at 10M (ok)
- 2nd engine 93.5%, priced at 8.5M (93% would be better. I think so)
- 3rd engine 91%, priced at 6M (my opinion this is the worse one, so a little cheaper)
- 3rd engine 90%, priced at 5M (no need to have it)
Considering Debik wants teams to make engines, less than 6M engine cobtract would help tank teams.
why should suplier engine drop down??? so developed engines can be updated and suplier drops? funny request
just build a better one, you dont have potential to do it? is it my fault?
Actually there is no major change in rules. Now I checked current engines status and there is at least one team which have only 2 engine parts finished and if they continue this patient approach and steady improvement they have good chance for 97% engine... +tuning it is more than 2% above 95%. I missed this team before since other 2 parts are weak and the overal result is not good. And surprisingly this team is not in the top 5 team. And yes they will have very poor chassis this next season...
31.03.2021 17:13:04 - DiogoSchwinn - ReplyReply to: 31.03.2021 16:13:37 - DebiK
perhaps with your thinking that you already know more information that we may not make much of a difference, but today as it stands, I would not agree to remove the obligation to subscribe for multiple seasons.
about "mini projects", I know, because we did it, but you know that the final quality of everything is not possible to know just with them.
To this day, no one has "buyed" a championship, but if I keep doing tanking for 10 seasons, add 150m and spend everything in two seasons, I will certainly win the title. But you talked about the cost limit, this can change this scenario, but we will only know this when new information comes.
31.03.2021 17:14:29 - DiogoSchwinn - ReplyReply to: 31.03.2021 16:29:31 - FBednar
maybe because when engine changes were announced it was said that in the first 2 seasons the engines purchased would be better and then the developed engines would have an advantage?
I will answer to all your posts at one.
1. There will be Costs Cap before new engine rules... It is unlikely that new engine rules will include option to sign supplier engines...
2. You just need to find the right parameters for tuning. To gain and not to lose. It is not that easy but also not that difficult.
3. The team with a chance for 97% engine is not Red Bull or Porsche. It is outside top 5 team, it surprised me and it will surely surprise you when you will fin dout which team is that.
4. I agree with that engines complain and it comes from more sides. I like your first proposal but I have modified one. All engines will need to be signed for at least 4 seasons, the exception is if team wants to change to equal or more expensive engine. How does it sound?
5. This idea with decreased quality is simply bad and does not make any sense... Keep in mind that quality 93.5% mentioned in article I was writing yesterday is now 93.84% (average of qualities of current parts) and at the beginning of next season it probably will be 94.5%. So supplier with 95% is just a bit better.
Because it was announced in articles which are now pinned at the bottom of the manual. There were lot of explanation how f1 would work... The reason why it is not directly in manual is that I did not wanted to make translators to translate it twice (and in article it is not obligatory while in the game it is)
31.03.2021 17:25:26 - DiogoSchwinn - ReplyReply to: 31.03.2021 17:14:41 - DebiK
I think the logic would be the same. You can cancel your contract as long as you subscribe for another 4 seasons thereafter.
31.03.2021 17:41:07 - torbar4life - ReplyReply to: 31.03.2021 17:14:41 - DebiK
At one point it was also possible for us to built a 97% engine. But with every project potential goes down because you it is not the only thing you jave to focus.
You proposal sounds good to me (point 4).
As I explained, I completely missed this team because they only have 2 parts finished and third part is in the middle of development... So the current average is bad and also it is not top tier team so i did not pay attention to that. I know it looks like I just say this to silence criticism, but luckily it is not like that and it is really true...
31.03.2021 18:49:15 - torbar4life - ReplyReply to: 31.03.2021 18:24:43 - DebiK
I would like to remind what you wrote:
- It was already announced that quality of suppliers engines will be dynamically adjusted after each season.
- During the first season we expect supplier engines being 1-2% above top teams engine.
- During 5th season it should be 2-3% under 3rd team`s engine.
There is no way that the 3rd best engine will ever be 97%. This is why I have a problem with a 95% suppliers engine in the first season. This is the reason why I proposed decreasing quality for suppliers engines. It is the only way to keep both "promises".
Why should teams with suppliers engine have their advantage at the start, but teams who developed their engine not. The only way to keep both promisees is if you reduce the engine quality according to actual engines. Not what their potential is.
In the past our KERS and gearbox always had around 1% higher potential than with what we ended up with.
31.03.2021 19:02:20 - DiogoSchwinn - Reply
If I remember correctly, the suppliers' engines will not have the option of tuning. And that from what I saw from Debik's words can give a gain of around 2%, so maybe considering that, what Debik explained makes more sense. In other words, a 95% quality piece can become 97% if properly adjusted.
You gave us 5 new parts to build and then say 'put ALL your employees on each part'! So literally to build the engine you were enforcing a tanked season on anyone that isn't Red Bull (or maybe Porsche/McL, I don't know how much they saved up.)
We thought as the 5th team we should be able to build and engine and race a slightly reduced stat car. We were very very wrong. Despite using employees with high stats that have been good enough for everything we have done for the past 20+ seasons including our current 95+ engine have left us without a hope of a usable engine thanks to potential drops. The only way we could have built an engine would have been to tank a season entirely, maybe even 2.
Given what I know of other developments around the pit lane and the little tinkering I've done with the engine tuning so far there will easily be multiple teams with 95%+ engines by season 43, if not next season. So in reality that supplier engine for 10m can't even hit the mark you set of 1-2% above best build for 2 seasons. 10m a season is also unsustainable, I don't think we could afford it given that we still have ES and then Gearbox to build as well.
But then put that 95% against any team that didn't tank 2 seasons and isn't RB and as torbar says it looks way too high. If we had known ahead of time just how jacked up this engine build was going to be ON TOP of the fact it was 4 parts instead of 1 (that was enough of a difficulty increase imo) we would have just gone straight to the supplier option and saved ourselves the headache.
Engines should have been buildable by all, especially when there is a gameplay feature attached to it, and should not have required tanking to achieve.
I know of at least one engine that will be 93% next season without tuning, so potentially 94-95% since they have been tuning this entire season. Average potential for the engine is above 96%. So achievable 95%+ plus tuning to 97% engine. This is not a top team. Given that at the very least there are two other teams that Debik has spoken about who have the same potential that 95% engine is actually fine. It might not even be the top engine next season, and certainly not in season 43 and beyond, so much for supplier advantage....By the 5th season there will easily be 3 97%+ engines, the problem might be that there are ONLY those three, and the 4th engine is a big drop off, I have no data on that but the way you are talking it seems likely Porsche and McLaren aren't in the 95% season 43 club.
31.03.2021 19:53:48 - torbar4life - ReplyReply to: 31.03.2021 19:24:34 - Wresdan
I don't know where you got your 2% gain with engine tuning.
From official press release:
"Bad parameters will result to loss of quality by 3-4% while perfect setting will give 0.3% bonus."
What bothers me the most is that rules keep changing. I even opened a topic on a global forum because there were so many questions and no real answers.
31.03.2021 20:07:20 - DiogoSchwinn - ReplyReply to: 31.03.2021 19:53:48 - torbar4life
maybe I had a misunderstanding anyway, Debik said something with 2% above, but it would be 2% above the 95% engine. and I understood that it would be the gain with the tuning.
You are right, but I thought it will be neccessary to improve them Not to downgrade... You would understand that Improving makes sense much more than downgrading...
Is it a "promise" when it says "we expect" and "should be" ?
Actually I reduced from BOTH promises... Best supplier engine will not be better by more than 1% if stays at 95%, and yes 3rd best engine will probably be not better than best supplier at 95%.
31.03.2021 21:01:24 - torbar4life - ReplyReply to: 31.03.2021 20:42:54 - DebiK
I know that downgrading doesn't make sense, but it's the only fix.
It was also to be expected that at least one team will have a better engine. But having a better engine doesn't mean you will end up with a faster car. You still have to develop ES, chassis and aero parts. Teams with suppliers engine will have a huge advantage there.
You are right and also not right Suppliers engines cannot be tuned so this is where you are right. But in the meantime tuning can give maybe additional 0.3%
There is team which have initial 2 engine parts way above 95% quality and way above 97% potential... They have a chance to have 97%+ engine before tuning + 0.3% with tuning.
Yes teams with suppliers engines will have HUGE advantage now... and Huge disadvantage in the future... Do you realize that 10M per season is very high price? If they want to be competitive after 4 seasons they would have less budget for development by 10M than teams with built engines? Even if those built engines are exactly 95%, so the same quality, the advantage is on their side?
Was basing that off my own experience. I averaged the current level of our parts and compared it to my tuning efforts, which have a round a 3-4% range so far.
Even without this there are still going to be at least 2-3 engines better than the best supplier engine in 1-2 seasons.
But yes I 100% agree on the lack of information and rules changes. But then this is always going to be the case when there is no way to test implementation other than the 'math' which is never going to reflect actual user related outcomes. Every new implementation in the game is just testing...
31.03.2021 21:32:19 - torbar4life - ReplyReply to: 31.03.2021 21:04:28 - DebiK
Their employees already had some Engine Experiences. Most teams started with their employees having no experience.
The way I understand this rule change now, your goal was that first 3-4 season only teams with suppliers engine would be competitive and after that it would be the other way around. Because the only way to build 97% engine is to solely focus on it and forget on everything else for 3 seasons.
I don't like when a game rewards uncompetitiveness.
As much as I hate to agree with Torbar he's right on one thing, tanking is basically now a forced necessity for every team outside of the top 3-4 (and maybe even the top 1-2). You either tank 2-4 seasons to build a worthwhile engine then compete for 4 seasons or you go the supplier route, compete for 2-3 seasons then tank a few seasons waiting for your chance to compete again....
On a completely different note, when are we going to get prices for the supplier energy stores? It was said at https://www.myracingcareer.com/en/news-article/366-en/ that we would have supplier energy stores.
01.04.2021 14:52:39 - DiogoSchwinn - Reply
Sometimes in discussions like this there seems to be a bit of an exaggeration to prove a point of view. Logically, changes like this come to "mess" things up. If nothing changed the teams at the front would remain the teams at the front and the teams at the bottom would remain the teams at the bottom. When we took over Lotus, the 60% difference money was 3x greater than what the team received from sponsorship during one season. With that, everything that we improve in sponsorships will yield us only 40% of the amount. See how long the path is for us. However, in the face of all this, we see it as an opportunity and we are making an engine that I hope will be decent and take us out of the grid.
It is relatively easy to know how much each team has invested in time and money in the new engine and to have an idea of the final result that each team will have. And whoever did this knows about the big differences in the way the process was conducted.
I'm not here complaining and taking the merits of the top teams, but it is much easier to remain a top team than to become a top team. I'm sure that none of you want to reduce investments in other things to make an engine, but that is also a matter of planning. Didn't those who failed to make an engine above 95% underestimate the difficulty?
I agree that the changes could be better conducted and written, but I also understand Debik's difficulty in trying to equalize things and that only happens when we all start making the pieces. I know of a team that made a mistake in numbers and made a few million useless. It is a complex equation and that if we are all racking our brains to deal with it I think it has reached the goal that Debik had in changing the rules.
For me, the problem is that Debik wants to have 2 systems. One with built engines and one with furnished engines. If you have 2 systems, you need to balance both systems accurately. And, here, the furnished engines have to be balanced with unknown quality of built engines, with a large variation among built engines, with unknown future evolution, making the balance hard to find. I definitively think that it's too hard to find the best balance between both systems and it's not possible to have a satisfying result.
For me, a better gameplay would be that all teams need to develop their own engine, and furnished engines have to be a temporary solution like the furnished gearbox (so not too expensive, but not great quality). Even if it's not realistic if we compare with IRL F1. I understand that Debik wants to have 2 systems to create more strategical choices to teams etc... but, it's so hard to balance that...
01.04.2021 16:05:59 - RngRouletteF1 - ReplyReply to: 31.03.2021 15:23:01 - DiogoSchwinn
If a team accumulates 80M and spends this amount of cash just to "buy" titles for one or two seasons, this team doesn't deserve better
We DID reduce investment in all other areas of our car. We DID know it would be harder. We DID spend more in 2 seasons than we have on any previous engine build in the game. We DID have better employees than in the past. And yet we have an engine that can never get above 93%.
To achieve more we were told we should have put ALL out employees on each engine part. That's 120 days out of 154 days development for 2 seasons. Please tell me how I 'made a bad decision' by not knowing that the only way to build and engine was to tank 2 seasons completely??
I have spent over 20 seasons building this team from the last laced team to the 5th placed team just to have this thrown in my face by someone who has been at Lotus how long?
Also, what goal? It may have screwed over the mid tier teams in favor of lower teams but don't kid yourself into thinking this doesn't guarantee the top teams winning for the next 8 seasons. If McL and Porsche haven't managed to make high level (97% by S44)engines but RB with their cash surplus did then it will be a 1 team race for the next 8 seasons no matter what the lower teams achieved engine wise.
01.04.2021 19:30:20 - GustavoMuller - Reply
You forgot one thing: Debik said the only possible 97% engine isn't from a Top5 team. So, even if RedBull managed to get a good engine (95% or 96%), we will see at least one other team in this fight! And this team could start AHEAD of RedBull and make they put more money every season on car to compensate that
01.04.2021 19:45:44 - RngRouletteF1 - ReplyReply to: 01.04.2021 19:30:20 - GustavoMuller
I'd take a bet on either Alpine or Pegaso, but rather Alpine. However, which team it ever is, I wouldn't expect them having an overall competitive package until season 44, rather season 45.
01.04.2021 19:59:33 - DiogoSchwinn - ReplyReply to: 01.04.2021 19:17:34 - Wresdan
For someone who has been in Lotus for less than 2 seasons and who knows how much you have invested in your engine and for how long. I understand that you may have been frustrated, but don't disqualify me because we have so little time managing a team. Note that Debik said that some teams made test pieces to estimate the time and investment of the projects.
If your engine got worse than the others with everything you invested in money, is it because you underestimated its construction time?
Here we are all in the same boat, some in first class and others wanting to get out of economy class, we all play with the pieces we have and trying to be better than others. Someone will always be uncomfortable with a change and someone will always have a chance to improve with it. Bets have already been placed, let's see who will win.
We have all our engine part, so it's not us. Btw, we will not be so much competitive next season, better on season 43 and hope to be good for season 44.
I wasn't disqualifying you, apologies if it sounded that way. I am merely frustrated, or worse, at how this has affected us after so much effort. We put 30 days into multiple pieces...so we couldn't do more than that....as I said, we used more and better designers, more money and more time than any part we have ever built before...and yet is not a useable result. The ONLY way to invest more was to tank. If anyone in this game thinks that a top 5 team should be force to tank a season just to build a part instead of continuing to race I clearly am in the wrong game.
You think a bottom team can build a car better than the top team just because they have a 1% better engine? I think you underestimate the rating of the rest of the parts of the top cars. Red Bull can spend as much on their front wing as you do on your chassis and it still wouldn't dent their finances....
01.04.2021 21:53:57 - GustavoMuller - ReplyReply to: 01.04.2021 21:30:33 - Wresdan
I understand very well about the finances of a bottom team. I'm doing the projections for Lotus since we are the managers. I know every little piece of that. But as I said before: This team will start ahead. Probably will not stay ahead of the top3, but will start there.
01.04.2021 23:07:13 - DiogoSchwinn - ReplyReply to: 01.04.2021 21:27:51 - Wresdan
Okay, understood and no hard feelings. See that we have a paradox, big teams have more money and less time available without a tank. Small teams have less money and more time available due to the tank. In my opinion if there were 3 seasons available, the bigger teams would have great engines, and I think that’s what DebiK thought when he proposed the change. But apparently some pieces you made would need a little more time or money initially. According to DebiK's words, some team at the bottom, for having more time, decided to use it all and may even have a 97+ engine. It may have been just luck or bad luck, or it could have been an opportunity taken advantage of by analyzing and planning. Anyway, it's not just an engine that will make a difference, this team will have to finish it and still make a decent car in season 43 onwards.
Don't forget S.Senna... they have engine department on lvl 4.
But it could be actually any team, with only 2 parts built, theoretically everything is possible, but they still need 2 more parts and I think they (whoever it is) won't be competitive in S42, and probably even for few more seasons.
What bugs me the most is that new engine rules are discriminatory.
The team with suppliers engine is supposed to win next season, no matter what. Skill level doesn't matter. Effort doesn't matter. Money doesn't matter ...
With every passing season, there is less and less meritocracy ...
New engine rules were supposed to fix this, not make it worse.
Unfortunately it's not Senna
04.04.2021 03:33:11 - DiogoSchwinn - Reply
7 more to go. Next try?
So where is the option to sell our engine? Is this coming, has it been finalized, season ends in a week and no further info!
I am sorry I did not noticed this post of you. Your request have been processed.
10.05.2021 21:54:00 - EugeneBellamy - Reply
I've been out of the F1 loop for a while, but it appears the mentality of F1 hasn't changed a single bit. Everyone still seems to hate change and will fight with vigour to resist it.
The top tier teams always seem to squeak the loudest, and well they should. Most of the changes are made in a manner that hurt the top tier teams, BUT only in the short run.
In this situation, the top tier teams are those that are engine builders. They are right in realizing that their never-ending dominance will be threatened in that short run. It is that fear that sends them to the threads seeking any bit of change that can enhance the result in their favour. Everyone should try and put themselves in their shoes when they analyze the posts with that perspective, as when you do it becomes very obvious why they are the loudest and most vociferous in their comments.
So why is it that the engine supplier teams are not fighting to defend the changes? Guys...wake up! There is an opportunity for some of those teams to contend in a championship season and for some of those lower-tier teams to jump up and gain points that they've never seen before! Think about what that really means to your program. More money, better sponsorship, and even if it is only for a short period of time, your team will grow stronger and become more competitive in the long run. Over time, the gaps between the top and the bottom COULD potentially close and more true competition may be enabled.
As a gamer, I like the idea of everyone having the potential to win and as I consider the proposal in general, it seems to satisfy that idea. Consider that every new part replacement has a certain life cycle with the engine being just one. The idea that there are TWO significant choices that can be made, and each has a pro and a con to it is what in fact makes the reality of EVERYONE having an opportunity to do well at some part of the cycle is as FAIR of a system as one could ever ask for.
F1 is all about choices, but in the past, I believe it would be appropriate to suggest that there was only one strategic choice that would lead to success. DebiK has seen the wisdom in creating at least 2 choices, each with the opportunity for success, but also with heavily associated costs. I think that is simply brilliant, and hopefully, the true gamers will wake up to this reality and take advantage of the opportunity that is being provided to you.
And before anyone tries to associate this with Mercedes, let me state publicly that these comments are my own INDEPENDENT comments. I am nothing more than a silent shareholder with regard to their management affairs, but as a fan on the sidelines I still have an opinion.
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